718: Escape Founder-Led Sales: How Specialization Can Help Your Agency Grow | Corey Quinn
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Hitting sales goals and scaling your agency? This episode is for you.
Corey Quinn joins us again on the podcast to share valuable tips. With over 15 years of extensive agency experience, he was the Chief Marketing Officer at Scorpion, helping skyrocket their revenue from $20M to an impressive $150M in just 6 years.
He’s also the author of the bestselling book “Anyone, Not Everyone: a Proven System for Agencies to Escape Founder-Led Sales.“
Now, Corey is on a mission to empower digital agency founders to scale their revenue and profits through Deep Specialization. Tune in and discover his secrets!
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Escape Founder-Led Sales: How Specialization Can Help Your Agency Grow
Introduction
Jeff Tomlin: I’m Jeff Tomlin and on this episode, we’re thrilled to have Corey Quinn back on the show. Corey has 15 years of in-house agency experience, including being Scorpion’s CMO, where he helped the company grow revenue from $20M to $150M in 6 years, which is an incredible growth rate.
He just published the bestselling book: “Anyone, Not Everyone: a Proven System for Agencies to Escape Founder-Led Sales.” Today, he helps digital agency founders scale revenue and profits with deep specialization.
Get ready Conquerors for Corey Quinn coming up next on this week’s episode of the Conquer Local Podcast.
Escape Founder-Led Sales: New Book Helps Agencies Grow.
Jeff Tomlin: Hey, I am excited to have a returning guest, a brand new author. The name of the book is Anyone, Not Everyone: A Proven System For Agencies To Escape Founder-Led Sales. Corey Quinn, welcome back to the show.
Corey Quinn: Jeff, I’m super excited to be here. Thanks for having me back.
Jeff Tomlin: Hey, well, I’m pumped to have you back. Congratulations on the book, by the way, now author.
Corey Quinn: Thank you. Thank you very much. Yes, I get to add that I guess to my LinkedIn profile and my family is sick of me talking about the fact that I’m an author now and all that good stuff. No, but it’s been a wonderful experience. What a great, not only the experience of writing it but now sharing it with the world. It’s been just really, really fantastic.
Jeff Tomlin: Well, that’s awesome. There’s a ton of work that goes into putting out a book and a lot of content there. Why don’t we jump into it?
Corey Quinn: Sure.
Jeff Tomlin: Why do agency founders have a hard time breaking out of the founder-led sales dilemma?
Corey Quinn: I think it’s such a good question, and about two years ago I left my role as a chief marketing officer at a company called Scorpion. And when I started consulting with agencies… My passion is working with agencies, agency founders. I found them to be just really fantastic group of people to work with. And one of the themes that kept coming up over and over again was I would work with the founder of the agency and they were struggling with getting out of that sales role. And it became clear to me that this was not just a one-off challenge, but it’s part of, I think maybe the overall sort of growth lifecycle of a typical agency. What I found is that agency founders will start off by letting everybody, including their friends and family and their neighbours and their alumni, know that, “Hey, I’m in business now. I’m an agency, and if you have a marketing need specifically, please work with me.” And that tends to get people off the ground. And the best agencies that I’m familiar with are typically founded by a charismatic, well-connected networking entrepreneurial founder who does a great job of generating a lot of early wins. What ends up happening, of course, in that growth cycle is as you begin to build a business and hire employees, the natural progression is that you have a business now that’s filled with dozens of different types of businesses and that variety, although the revenue could be really great, all that variety in the business causes kind of attacks in the business. And one of the ways to get through that, and to evolve through that is by number one, which is a big part of the work that I do. I’m very, very interested in this topic. I’ve got a podcast. I interview many, many founders of agencies who’ve gone through this verticalization process, but then also once they verticalize, it doesn’t necessarily mean they can escape founder-led sales. And so there’s a couple of other things that typically hold them back. I’d love to share with you what those things are when it comes to escaping founder-led sales.
Founders Struggle with Sales as Agencies Grow & Diversify.
Jeff Tomlin: Well, why don’t we start with the first one because you talk about moving from a generalist to a specialist. So what specifically are you talking about when you discuss that? And then I think that you have sort of a five-step process around this, so lead us through all of it because I want to get the tactics out of you in this short time we have together.
Corey Quinn: Great. So when you are transitioning from a generalist to a specialist, there’s really two primary ways an agency can specialize. Number one, they could specialize in what they do, so they could become the best in the world at doing SEO, but not have a lot of specificity as it relates to who they work with. That’s common in the marketplace. And then the other way you could specialize is you specialize in who you serve. So a common example I’ll use is attorneys. We work with attorneys and we don’t say yes to dentists and plumbers and manufacturing companies and other types of companies. And so the work that I do in helping agency founders specialize is really in the second one, which is identifying a vertical market that has a need that you can solve, that you’re really good at solving, that you have some level of empathy or care for that you could really build your business around. And of course, as a result of simplifying who you target, everything in the business gets much easier, especially in sales and marketing, because all of a sudden when you’re just targeting attorneys, you know which lists to buy, you know which content to write, you know which podcasts to start, you know which conferences to go to, and associations to join, so on so forth. And as a result of that focus, your marketing becomes much more potent as well as many other benefits. And so the steps are… it’s very straightforward. The process that I call, it’s called deep specialization. What many agencies will do is that they will just choose a vertical based on the number of businesses or maybe their spend, and that’s fine. But where I’ve seen the most success is when they choose a vertical that they can have some level of empathy for. So in this process of choosing the vertical, it’s not just enough to have a viable market, you have to have some level of empathy or want to genuinely serve this market. And I think that what that results in ultimately is a better retention rate because you’re able to communicate more clearly that you understand the buyer and that you’re able to provide more profound solutions. So the first step is to go into your client list, understand which clients are really good fits for you, and that’s determined by the amount of revenue, retention, referrals, the number of metrics, and then you do want to validate whether or not you enjoy working with these folks. The question I ask clients is, “If you were going to fill your business with only attorneys, would that make you excited to get out of bed every day?” Because the qualitative piece is really important. And then once you’ve identified a vertical market that has a lot of great client data, you have some evidence that you’ve been successful, you have a level of empathy for them, then you want to just go out in the market and identify how big is the market? Is there enough of them to justify specializing? After you’ve gone through that process, you’re typically at a point where you’re able to make a high-quality decision to target a vertical market. Once you’ve done that, that’s all really step one. The next couple of steps have to do with really understanding the psychology of the buyer. The way that I do that with my clients is we do buyer journey interviews. It’s literally one-on-one interviews where we ask them questions to understand how and why they bought from your agency. We also do competitive analysis to understand step three is a competitive analysis where we understand in the marketplace, the agency world is very, very competitive, called a red ocean, if you will, which means that there’s just a ton of competition, very hard to differentiate. And so, one of the things that you want to do is you want to research your competitor to see how they’re specifically they’re positioning in the market. Are they the high value or high-quality leader, high cost, high-quality leader, or are your competitors more low cost, high volume? Or maybe they’re very technologically savvy or whatever that is, you want to understand what the competitive market is so you could differentiate in that market. And then really the last couple of steps have to do with activating a new positioning based on your specialization in the market and your differentiated positioning. We also talk about point of view, POV, which we talk about some other time, but ultimately, once you have those, it’s time to go into the market and to start to market to those agencies. Last time I was on, we were talking about inbound, outbound and relationship-based marketing. Those are sort of the tactics that you go into the market with in order to build your expertise and your reputation as a specialist in the market.
Founders Struggle Selling, Specialization builds High-Performing Teams.
Jeff Tomlin: By the way, the whole topic of the book I can totally relate to because there probably isn’t a founder out there that thinks that there’s other people that could sell better than him or her. And it does actually turn out to be the case that most founders are the best salespeople, and it’s challenging breaking out of that. But it’s interesting as you talk about the specialization, it strikes me that also helps the founder build a team around them that have the chance of doing just as well as him or her, especially if you can identify people that have empathy for your particular audience that you’re targeting. I can see how that would help create an organization that’s more high-performant.
Corey Quinn: The three things, really briefly, that keep a founder in the sales role is a lack of focus, as you mentioned. Number two is having watery positioning, which means that their buyers can’t differentiate them from everyone else. And then the third thing is that they just don’t have a good strategy for running sales and marketing. They don’t have a great SOP or process that is transferable away from the founder. Anytime you don’t have a clear focus, clear positioning and a good strategy, the founder just gets sucked right back into sales because they’re so dependent on.
Jeff Tomlin: But they can persist in that type of role for some time as the agency’s growing and it can become entrenched in the organization. Do you have an example or a story where there’s an organization that’s gone through this sort of deep specialization and chosen a vertical? I imagine it’s a little bit stressful on an organization that’s had a way of doing things before and you’ve got to change their go-to-market.
Corey Quinn: It’s interesting, you mentioned the word stressful. Certainly, change is difficult. And when you go from serving anyone to serving a specific market, there’s an inherent human bias that prevents us from wanting to do less versus more, right? The idea that you’re narrowing your focus is somehow anti… doesn’t make a lot of sense from just a psychological perspective, but the reality is that there is a lot of pain in running a generalist agency, and typically agency founders won’t make this transition until they’ve tried everything else. They don’t want to specialize, they don’t want to narrow their market. They’ve just tried everything else. They’ve tried to sell more. They’ve tried different marketing schemes and different operational schemes, but the challenges of running a sort of inefficient service-based business just keep coming back. And so one example I like to give is a gentleman by the name of Alex Membrillo. Alex runs an agency out of Atlanta called Cardinal Digital Marketing. And what was interesting about him is he followed the typical path that most agencies do, which is that he would serve anyone and everyone in his neighbourhood. He served everyone from the local ice cream truck, made a website for him, to dentists, to attorneys, to other types of local businesses. And he just got tired of not knowing what to say in the sales calls because every sales call was with a different type of business. And he had to remember, “Is this leads? Is this patients? Is this cases? What is this?” And he was really frustrated because there’s this sense that he was just not a master at anything. He was just kind of good at everything And he really wanted to be good at something. And so he decided to specialize in medical practices. And I asked him, “Why was this? Why did you choose medical practices?” And he said, “Ultimately because I really care about people and I want to be part of helping people to thrive and helping in a way that I’m going to do that with my agencies by helping medical practices.” And so as a result of specializing, he started saying yes more to medical practices. He started saying no to other types of medical, sorry, non-medical clients, and went through this transition, rebranded, rewrote, and relaunched the whole website and all the materials. And as a result of that, now three, four years later, they’re an eight-figure digital marketing agency exclusively serving multi-location medical practices. And they now all of a sudden have become a very well respected expert in authority in the world of medical marketing.
Specialize for Growth, Retention, & Higher Valuation.
Jeff Tomlin: I can a hundred percent back up your thesis around this because we’ve got thousands of different agencies that work with our company and we’ve done a number of churn studies over the years. And I can tell you the evidence is overwhelming that the ones that specialize in a particular vertical market, they have more consistent growth over time. They have lower churn, they have higher customer satisfaction in the NPS. And so the evidence is completely clear.
Corey Quinn: There’s a couple of other data points there I think are important as well, which is that better employee retention, you typically grow faster. You may have mentioned that, but there was a study that went out in 2022 that agencies that are specialized grow twice as fast as generalist agencies. And then if you’re building an agency looking to be acquired, acquirers will pay more for a specialist agency because typically it’s not founder-led. Number two is they have really great processes, internal processes based simply on the fact that if you’re serving dentists or attorneys over and over and over, you can make that much more process driven versus if you had a large variety of different types of clients. And so for those agency founders who are looking to sell and want to attract buyers, specialization is a great path to go as well.
Jeff Tomlin: And the employees stick around because they’re playing a winning game. Everybody’s happy when everyone’s winning and when things are harder, people aren’t as happy.
Corey Quinn: And so it’s ultimately, it’s a game of simplification. It’s less is more. And I think there’s, again, in the early days, there’s again about bias against simplifying and reducing your scope, but as a result of that, you can get much better and build a true reputation about being an authority and expert.
Scorpion used High-Quality Gifts to Break through & Boost Sales.
Jeff Tomlin: Hey, there’s a couple of things. So you’ve got a ton of experience, and I wanted to tap into some of your CMO wisdom and history. You guys did a lot of good things over at Scorpion, and one of the things that I wanted to ask you about that you guys had a ton of success with was gifting, and it really contributed to the growth that you guys had. You could talk a little bit about that for the listeners to share what you did over there and the impact that it had because I think it was really, really well executed.
Corey Quinn: Thank you. So when I joined in 2015, it was a six-person sales team, already a successful agency, but they were subsisting on inbound leads. And the founder brought me in, I was an outsider, and he really wanted to grow the agency dramatically more out of just a true level of empathy for the audience, he really wanted to help more people, and in this case, it was attorneys to start. And the challenge was that you can’t control inbounds. Inbounds come in and they just come in at whatever level, but you can’t really influence the volume of sales. And so we decided to bring in outbound sales and marketing. And of course, the first thing we did was we bought a list and we had the sales team cold call. Of course, they wouldn’t cold call, and we got a lot of friction, and the quality of that effort was really poor. Anyways, we didn’t get a lot of results. And then instead of continuing with that madness, we decided to do something different, which was to send a high-quality list of prospects that we vetted ahead of time, and we sent them a FedEx box with a beautiful tin of amazing, earth-shatteringly good cookies that were delivered directly to the decision maker ahead of calling. And as a result of that, we were able to get right through the gatekeeper and go right to the decision-maker. And I think a part of it is because it’s unique. People are not expecting to get gourmet cookies, at least back then. I think it’s probably more popular now. It is striking because the cookies are so good. I mean, they would get these cookies and they would have one, they’d be like, “These are amazing. They’d bring them into the break room.” Then everyone in the law firm’s eating these cookies and saying, “Well, who brought these amazing cookies?” And of course the word Scorpion was bouncing off all the walls because everyone was just thrilled about this. And it left a great impression because all of a sudden they realized, “Hey, we’re talking about this marketing company and our current marketing company doesn’t know anything about marketing. This company Scorpion is really interesting. So when they call, make sure that they get through to the decision maker because we want to talk to them.” That’s a really powerful impression. That insight led us to really leaning into gifts. We would send a gift a quarter to all of our prospects. Towards the end of when I was there, we had a 100-person sales team, and half of my $6 million budget went right to sending gifts every year. So $3 million in gifts every year to prospects.
Gifts Doubled Revenue, Outbound Loved it and Inbound Halved
Jeff Tomlin: I didn’t realize it, it was that type of scale. That’s enormous. And so you guys must- In order to invest that much, you guys must’ve been getting amazing response rate from doing this consistently.
Corey Quinn: Yeah. Well, just to put some numbers behind it, we went from 100% of our revenue, or roughly 100% of our revenue was from referrals and inbounds to 50% of our revenue was to referrals and inbounds. The other 50% was directly tied to going outbound. So we doubled our revenue as a result of including this type of approach to our marketing.
Jeff Tomlin: It’s so cool because I mean, in general, outbound is hard. And once you’ve got a sales team, if they’ve been calling on inbound leads, it’s really hard to get them to change and call outbound leads because it’s so much harder. And I could see how, oh my gosh, the sales team must’ve been just thrilled with you.
Corey Quinn: So they went from call resistance to the max to, “You’re not cold calling, you’re just following up on cookies,” to all the way to the other end of the spectrum was down the road a couple of years in, “We’re not picking up the… Did you send a gift ahead? Because we’re not going to call anyone unless you send gifts ahead of time.” So we kind of spoiled them in that way. It was very interesting how that all played out.
Jeff Tomlin: So what strikes me is what must’ve been the magic formula there was that you didn’t just send them cookies, you sent them amazing cookies and…
Corey Quinn: Correct.
Jeff Tomlin: Part of the magic in that formula must be sending something remarkable that they talk about.
Corey Quinn: That’s right.
High-Quality Gifts = High-Quality Brand Image
Jeff Tomlin: By the way, one reason why that story really resonates with me, I haven’t done things to the scale that you have when it comes to gifting, but I remember one event, we took part in a golf tournament that was part of an event that we did, and we were one of the sponsors, but we did have the sleeves, we had custom sleeves for the balls that had Vendasta’s logo all over it. And there are a lot of eight large-scale agencies at this golf tournament. And I remember one gentleman came up to me and he was the owner of a very large agency. He said, “I haven’t seen this type of packaging before.” He said, “I thought it was really unique and creative.” He said, “But I opened up the package and to my delight, there were Pro V1s inside.” He said, “I expected to get cheap balls. But no, there were Pro Vs.”
Corey Quinn: Exactly. Yes, exactly. So everything speaks, every touch point. As an agency founder, you know this, but it’s important to repeat it, which is that everything you do is a reflection of your agency and the quality of the work that you do for your clients. And so if you’re going to a conference and you get the cheapest pens possible that you have as sort of the swag that you bring, that’s, unfortunately, going to represent in some small way the quality of your agency. And so we really took that to heart and we would, for instance, at the conferences, we’d bring Yeti mugs. We couldn’t bring hundreds of them, but we brought 40 or 50. And the people who got them were blown away like, “This is great. I’m going to have this forever. Thank you so much. I’m so excited I got this.” To reinforce your point, which is that if you are a company that is positioned around being a high-quality experience, then make sure that all the experiences you create are high quality.
QISR: Quality > Innovation > Speed > Results
Jeff Tomlin: What a great takeaway. Were there other things that you did at Scorpion that through the work that you did became sort of cornerstones of the way that you think about marketing going forward? Because I mean, I think that takeaway is great. If you put any type of program together, it’s got to match your brand identity. And if your brand is a high-end brand then your programs need to be reinforced that, I think that’s a great piece of wisdom.
Corey Quinn: Just knowing that everything speaks your website, the quality of the emails that your sales team send out, those are important. We obsessed over that. It was like, “Every last little detail needs to reinforce the message that you are putting out.” Another one that was really important I think is worth sharing for your audience is we went from having one vertical market to four vertical markets. We had six salespeople, then we eventually had a hundred salesperson team. We went from a hundred employees to a thousand employees. There’s a lot of change and a lot of chaos, if you will, there are a lot of moving parts. The way we went to business required a lot of consistent activity across many, many domains. And so, one of the things that my team put together was an acronym, and it was QISR and it’s spelled Q-I-S-R. Probably not the best term from an HR perspective, but that’s the way it worked. And it stood for Q is for quality, I is for innovation, S is for speed, and R is for results. And that was the filter by which we put everything through in our group. I was in charge of marketing, basically acquiring new customers at Scorpion, I had a 30-person team, a lot of moving parts as I said. And so the standard that we had to hold ourselves against is number one, quality. Is what we’re doing high quality, does it represent the brand that we are trying to build? Number two, is it innovative? Innovative means that you’re continuing to improve on what you did before. If we sent cookies last quarter, well, we can’t send cookies again this quarter because that’s not very innovative. We have to do something different and better this time. S is speed. We have to move quickly, we have to get things done. And then the last one is results. We’re not going to do anything if it’s not delivering results. The way it was written, however, is Q-I-S-R. And that means that quality is first. That means innovation is second, speed is third, and results is fourth. And that’s how we ran our entire marketing team is through that filter. Everything we did.
Jeff Tomlin: Oh, it’s so smart. I love having frameworks that a team can think around the work because when you create a framework like that, it helps them through the decision-making process. As you scale an organization, as you well know, you have to build in frameworks that help the team scale. And so you got to help them make decisions. I think that’s so smart.
Corey Quinn: It has to be a framework. To your point, it has to be simple to understand and to self-minister administer because you can’t have a bunch of people policing everything that everyone’s doing. But more just it’s a spirit of applying these principles to everything we do. And if we do that most of the time, then we’re going to be in a good spot.
Agencies should Specialize in Clients, not Services.
Jeff Tomlin: You look out the next few years, do you see agency specialization changing?
Corey Quinn: I think what is going to be persistent throughout the time, the foreseeable future, is that if you’re thinking about specializing, it is even more better than ever to specialize in who you serve versus what you do. The world we live in is one where change is very, very commonplace and it’s increasing by some measures. In other words, what’s here today may not be here tomorrow. And that’s certainly true of marketing platforms. And so if you stake your claim in, “Hey, I’m a HubSpot marketing partner,” or “I’m a TikTok agency,” and these are things you’re specializing in what you do, you run more risk than saying, “I’m a growth partner for attorneys, and whether it’s TikTok or it’s YouTube or it’s SEO or PPC, whatever it is, I’m going to figure it out for them because I’m going to be the specialist in helping them when it comes to all things growth. I can be flexible with what it is, but what’s not flexible is who I serve. I serve attorneys.” And as a result of taking that approach, attorneys will always have growth problems. Like anyone else, they’re going to need specialists to come in and take their hand and move them to where they want to be. And the best people to do that are folks who understand their world at a deep level.
Jeff Tomlin: Throughout the talk, we’ve alluded to different things that are quantifiable where specialization is making a difference in a business. Just quickly, are there metrics that you have or key metrics to be able to measure if the specialization is making an impact on the business direction?
Corey Quinn: So the biggest metric that I like to look at is retention. The challenge with being a generalist is that it is very easy to get distracted in serving too many different types of clients. And so, one of the reasons why people who buy agencies really love specialists is because typically the retention is really high. And so that’s the biggest success metric that I look at when I come into a new business is, “What does your retention look like?” And it should be greater than 90%. You should be retaining most of your clients over time, and if you are slipping on that, then that’s the first place to look instead of sales and marketing. So that’s a simple answer, but that’s typically my go-to.
Client Focus Trumps Service Expertise for Agencies.
Jeff Tomlin: No, I like that a lot because it’s probably the most important metric to measure whether you’ve got your product or your service has market fit, right? I like that one. Putting it up top.
Corey Quinn: And I’ll just quantify that one more thing. As it relates to Scorpion, we had really good retention, and so we knew that we would have a client for 36 months, whereas our competitors would keep them for 12 months, and as a result of that, that LTV, we were able to reinvest some of those future revenues back into marketing, and we can out market our competition. We could do cooler things, we can go bigger, we can give away Teslas and all this crazy stuff. So that was really important, but it was all driven by our retention rate.
Jeff Tomlin: And hard to see that impact if you don’t have the metrics front and centre, like your lifetime value. That’s an interesting insight that you can out-market them because you know you’re going to have the customers around longer.
Corey Quinn: That’s right.
Jeff Tomlin: Solid practitioner here. Corey Quinn, do you have one takeaway that you want to leave the audience with?
Corey Quinn: Yeah. I think if you’re struggling with founder-led sales, I would say consider specializing in serving a specific vertical market. It will make things a lot easier, a lot simpler, and it’ll allow your team to specialize as well, able to streamline processes and ultimately get you more freedom and profit, which is why most agency owners start their business.
Jeff Tomlin: Name of the book. You want to hold the book up one more time. Name of the book, Anyone, Not Everyone: A proven System For Agencies To Escape Founder-Led Sales. Congratulations on publishing your book. I hope to have you back and do this again, just a ton of wisdom from all the experiences that you have, and I’m happy to see you sharing them. It’s a pleasure having you on the podcast, Corey.
Corey Quinn: What a treat, Jeff, thank you so much for the opportunity. Appreciate it.
Getting in touch with Corey Quinn
Jeff Tomlin: Corey Quinn, ladies and gentlemen. And if people wanted to get a hold of you, continue the conversation, how do they reach out to you?
Corey Quinn: Best place to go is anyonenoteveryone.com and that will redirect you to my website where you can get a free version of the audiobook there and then as well as just more content. If you want to reach out to me, there’s a contact form on the website.
Jeff Tomlin: Well, there you have it. Corey Quinn, thanks so much for stopping by. Wish you the best and hope to see you again.
Corey Quinn: Thank you, Jeff.
Conclusion
Our conversation with Corey Quinn was, as always, packed with valuable insights. Here are a couple of takeaways for agency founders looking to escape the sales trap and achieve sustainable growth.
The first takeaway is to Escape the Founder-Led Sales Trap Through Specialization. This takeaway addresses a common challenge faced by agency founders getting stuck in sales. Corey argues that specialization is the key. By identifying a vertical market and ideal client, you can empower your team to develop deep expertise. This not only improves sales efficiency but also frees you up to focus on growth and leadership.
The second piece of wisdom is to build a Client-Centric Foundation for Growth. Don’t just specialize – specialize with empathy. Choosing a niche you genuinely care about allows you to better understand your client’s needs and build stronger relationships. Corey emphasizes that a focus on client satisfaction, as measured by retention rate, is a more sustainable path to growth than chasing every lead that comes along.
If you enjoyed Corey Quinn’s episode discussing agency growth and specialization, keep the conversation going and revisit some of our older episodes from the archives: Check out Episode 620: The Power of Verticals and Go-To-Market Strategies with Corey Quinn or Episode 714: 10x Your Growth: The Marketing Framework to Attract & Convert More Customers with Solomon Thimothy
Until next time, I’m Jeff Tomlin. Get out there and be awesome!